Access, Operations, and Scale: Rethinking the Insurance Market with PoloWorks

James BenhamI am here at RIMS twenty twenty six. I am with Paul Andrews. How's it going, Paul? Yeah. Not too bad. It's my first time at RIMS.

Paul AndrewsIt's interesting. Yes. It's it's good. It's one of those things. It's you you could spend your whole life doing different things, never getting to all the insurance conventions. It's my first time doing one of these. What's the major convention that you usually go to? RVS, so Monte Carlo Rendezvous. We do some UK UK ones. So there's a there's a BIBA one called British Insurance Brokers Association in Manchester who do that one. And literally, I come back from this on Thursday, and I go out on Sunday to another conference in Barcelona.

In March? Yeah. Which is an MGA... An MGA focused one. Thanks. Just for Europe or for the world? It's... Well, it's... So Lloyd's... Well, not even Lloyd's. Europe is starting to grab attention in the MGA space. So typically, the the European market has been very carrier focused. So the good and the great, the domestic carriers, the analysts, and the scores, they've pretty much controlled those markets for many, many years. So most businesses stayed regionally within the European European countries themselves. What you're seeing is with technology, with a change in the way people's attitudes are working, is is an emergence of people who have realized that actually, am I stuck in a carrier doing all the things I did before and waiting for someone almost to leave before I can take my next step.

Whereas the MGA space in Europe is completely underdeveloped, and it's ripe for change, and everyone everyone realizes that. As what we would call a wild west? I don't I know what the British equivalent phrase is. Yeah. I I I suppose I suppose it's it's an awakening. I think I think that's that's the reality. There is an awakening in Europe that, actually there is a different way of accessing business and providing capacity. Yeah. And you can also use MGAs as a tool to chase after markets that you might not wanna bend your primary carrier to.

Well, I mean, we're we're we're seeing the soft market. Right? So we've done a hard market thing. The soft market's coming. Rates are rates are are coming off. Two things happen in in that softening phase before we we we saw the real softening. First one is everyone loves the land grab, So you'll see people push out on territories and markets and brokers and do a bit of a land grab because rates are good. Right? So it's still time to eat. You can still make a reasonable profit.

Then the next step is flight for distribution, and distribution is straight down the channel to the MGA at the coalface, and we're seeing that as well. So there's a double edged movement in our market. One is the launch and rise of the MJ again, and and Europe is not The UK because it's quite heavily developed, but but the non UK areas of the of the European market are underdeveloped, and there's a big push into those to find good underwriters, put them in vehicles with capacity, give them the ability to monetize their future,

James Benhamand that's where the markets go. Nice.

Paul AndrewsLet's pause that and go to you. Yep. You were born and raised in a London area. Not not on London proper, but in... Just outside of London. Right? No. No. I'm I'm I'm I'm an East End boy. So Oh. Born and proper. Oh, blood and proper. Yeah. No. Fallen pray. So... No. Okay. Who's your team? West Ham United.

James BenhamThe Hammers. I'm... I am a I am a West Ham fan, believe it or not. A good friend of mine in London a few years ago, I I was teamless in in the in the Premier League, and he convinced me why I should be a hammer. So I am. I have... I I... In fact, my first day of InsurTech Insights, was in London, I was in your town a few weeks ago. Yeah. I wore my West Ham scarf around the whole day. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Evidently, the West Ham scarf looks almost indistinguishable from another team's scarf.

Alaskan Villa. Yeah. Yeah. And so they had to, like, check with me. And so I pulled I pulled the tail end up, and I'm like Yeah. It's first time. Yeah. And so I I love the cold. I love the West Ham culture, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I primarily focus on... Well, now, you know, we have a right proper league in America. Yeah. Egypt. We have twenty twenty nine teams now in The US. Yeah. Miami is my team right now because my favorite player in the world is there.

We can't... I can't, you know, say no to Leonel Messi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But Argentina is the league I watch the closest, actually. Yep. So some of the best strikers in the world come out of there. So I see. Yeah. I put that down. Keeps happening Yeah. Over and over and Yeah. Over It does.

Paul AndrewsSo let's let's talk... When you were growing up, did you say, I want to be CEO of an insurance company? No. No. What did you want to be CEO? I wanted to be an electrical engineer. There you go. So so I I I applied for a company called Plessis to get on their graduate program. So I've left school, and I was 17, and it was, well, what am I gonna do? So my uncle, who was a broker at Lloyd's, said we've got a temporary job, for the summer.

Are you interested? And my my mom and dad were like, you need to do something. You're gonna sit around all summer doing nothing. And it was a good opportunity to put a suit on and go work in the sea, which I'd I'd never even dreamed of doing in my wildest dreams. And, I got into London, and within a couple of months, those are the bad old days where, there was quite a lot of lunchtime drinking and lots of, lots of evening entertainment. It's not like that anymore, but back then it was.

And you're just thinking, is this what people do for a living? This doesn't seem that hard. And strangely enough, three months passed. Flu. Absolutely flu passed. And I remember talking to my mother saying, you know what? I'm waiting for Plessis. They they should have called me by now because I'm I'm sure I've got on the program. And she went, they did. I said, alright. What happened? She's right. I told me you had a job. I went, what? So

James Benhamso that then firmed up my career in insurance. Was that intentional by your mother, or was that a mistake? Absolute

Paul Andrewsmistake. Didn't understand. Thought I was happy. Had no clue what I was doing. So... Yep. So... But here I am forty three years later, sitting in rooms, traveled around the world, quite frankly, you know, doing the job I do. So I can't I can't really complain. It's pretty good life. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I... I'm doing something now, which I think I'm blessed to do. I love my job and and the things we're doing at Pillow. So it doesn't even feel like work half the time.

So tell me, why is it called Pillow? The parent company that that purchased what was Capital Management Agency and Capital Commercial Insurance Services called Marco, and they had this great idea to call it Polo. We're the subsidiary Marco Polo. So that's where we are. There's no other reason other than that. Other than you thought it'd be clever? Yeah. Yeah. It is. So it's the name Marco Polo, so let's start together. Well, the company I started in uni was my initials in the word knowledge. Right. Okay.

I thought about it for about thirty minutes. Yeah. It's

James Benhamnow we've been in business twenty five years. We employ hundreds of people, and it's called JBK. But it's like, you know, you Yeah. Yeah. Don't think these decisions you make when you're in your uni dorm room are are Yeah. That's right. Gonna gonna gonna... You have to live with them forever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's that's brilliant. It's a brilliant... In fact, I was reading about Marco Polo the other day. Yeah. What a fascinating Yeah. Yeah. Sort of. Fascinating career path. So life, I would say, and adventures.

Tell me what you do, and tell me how you got to what you do. Okay. So

Paul AndrewsLloyd's Lloyd's has a unique framework for new entrants for starting vehicles up. You have to have you have to go through what's called a turnkey process. Now now Polo has a number of different arms. It has three sort of main arms. The first the first one is it could do captives out of Guernsey, and Mark, you spoke to earlier on, is is is... That's his thing. We do turnkey syndicates under Polo Management Agency, which I'm the CEO of, and we do commercial insurance services under Polo Commercial Insurance Services.

So the commercial insurance services arm, if you wanted underwriting support, client finance work, if you wanted someone to come in and do this for you, that's what they do. We have we have we have listeners who've listened to my show for six years. Yeah.

James BenhamAnd we've got a lot of technologists that are on the show. Maybe they don't even know what a turnkey syndicate is. Yeah. Can you define those words very Yeah. I think it's it's a it's a bit like

Paul Andrewsyears ago, you could go into Lloyd's and you could have your own vehicle. So Lloyd's is is is is a is a collection of syndicates and management agencies. The syndicates are the trading, underwriting vehicle that the underwriting is sitting, and the management agency risk taking entities. Yeah. And and and that's where the capital gets deployed. And the management agency are the legal entities that actually regulate those businesses. So they sit there as the management agency. They're the ones responsible ultimately to the PRA and to Lloyd's and other regulators for what happens in those vehicles.

James BenhamYeah. So what do you do that's different or better than So if you wanted to set up a technology syndicate,

Paul Andrewsand so you had 50,000,000 of of of property that you're gonna bring in, you'd come to us because you have to come to us. There's there's three of us in the market. I'm not gonna tell you the others too well. There's three of us in the market. You'd come to us, and we would work with you to get you through that process. So there's a there's a there's a process called triage where you basically negotiate with Lloyd's around your business plan, about what your capital looks like, what your structure is gonna be, where you're gonna access business from.

And in Lloyd's, look at that, and I come to a view whether or not you... You're allowed in the club where they think that's accretive to Lloyd's themselves. Yep. And if you are, then we'll put you into a syndicate, into a vehicle. We create one or do Yeah. No. We create one we create one. So we'll we'll register We'll Lloyd's Lloyd's give you a syndicate number, and then you're you're trading after after you go through something called the making it happen phase, which is where we stand up everything, literally everything.

And then you go into PTU, which is Bishop Under Eye, and and you're off. You're off a races trading out of Lloyd's. And then we monitor you for three years.

James BenhamWhy why three years?

Paul AndrewsIt can be longer. It's a minimum. So Lloyd's say they want Syndicate Spanish by an experienced managing agency for three years. At the end of three years, you can go to Lloyd's and us and say, we wanna be out on our own now. We wanna manage our own destiny because, to be fair, the syndicates are under our control during that period. And the franchise value is in your own managing agency. Right? So that's where you wanna be. So so you're gonna go, right. I've gotta put in a project to get me out of a turnkey management agency into my own management agency.

And there's a and there's a process for that, which takes about another year.

James BenhamIs it fair to call Lloyd's an incubator?

Paul AndrewsWell, we're the incubator. That's what that's what Polo Polo Majer AC is. We are absolutely a syndicate incubator. That's spotty. Yeah. Yeah. So we're we're because there's a lot of technology incubators for us tech companies. You were in tech. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm I mean, I've I've I've Does does Lloyd's incubate tech companies too as well as syndicates? Yes. It does. So... Through Lloyd's Lab? Yeah. There there is. There's been some come through there. And so sometimes it's a service, and sometimes it's a technology play.

There's been a lot of good technology coming through. There's actually one on the Lloyd's the Lloyd's Lloyd's Booth Today guy who's developed something that looks at a schedule of values, that that... Which is pretty cool. So... Yeah. So you do see you do see a lot of technology coming through. To to to be fair, Lloyd's is is the balance sheet that sits behind the technology. So we're we're... You're the it's a carrying arm of of of of the insurance policy that's underpinned by tech. Right? So we've got a syndicate in our business called Wildfire Defense, and and they they...

They're quite unique. So they write a new wildfire business. Only wildfire? Only wildfire biz in The States. They're based out of Bozeman, Montana. Good place to be based out of. Yeah. And they've got Cover Idaho, Montana, California Yep. Oregon, all all the all the big wildfire exposure states. And it's quite unique it's quite unique proposition because because there there... It's a it's a mix of it's a mix of old and new. Right? So if you go back two hundred years and you look at how insurance was was dealt with in in London, you'd have different carriers who would provide you house insurance, fire insurance for your property.

And if your house caught fire, there was a plate on your house. It would be from the cellar lines. And the fire engine company that go to the name, house is the place. Yeah. And if and if if one turned up and it it wasn't yours, they they wouldn't put the fire out. Right? So WDS have come back to that approach. So they they are an MGA. They've narrow syndicate. They have multiple fire vehicles and trained firefighters across across California. So they will stand up fire teams to actually sit there and put the fires out and put suppression stuff down.

On top of that, they have have a data center at Bozeman where they monitor wildfires 247365. So they look at the direction of travel, and then they've got data science there that model where they think that fire is gonna go, and then they use their assets to sit in front of that and and and basically reduce the the the propensity for fire across the the properties they ensure. So it's a mix and old technology there to to get to a new way of mitigating wildfire loss.

Isn't it interesting to you... To me, this is really interesting that

James Benhamthe the more advanced we get, sometimes we circle back on concepts that already existed before. Yeah. Exactly. Right? I mean, I've I've seen this so many time. You know, I've been in my own business for twenty five years. Yep. I've seen a couple, three cycles of people rehashing the same thing as it... We're seeing insurance company talking about insuring credit default swaps right now, which is Yeah. Well which is like Yep. Did we go on that ride? Yeah. Yeah. You see ideas, some bad ones come back, but also a lot of good ones.

Yeah. Yeah. And and this one's interesting. This one's under... This particular model is under a lot of social pressure. Yeah. Very much so. But, you know, we we don't have to go into that go into that that issue. It was... It would... There was a lot of social pressure back then too two hundred years ago. Yeah. There was You know, when a fire brigade passes up a house with no plate on it, they Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard one. Capacity to help, but now...

But but but at the same time, you know, this is a free market. It's capitalism. You can, you know, it's it's... You can choose whether you pay for something or not.

Paul AndrewsHow many sin... Out of curiosity, how many syndicates does Lloyds have? Oh, sure. I couldn't actually tell you about... But quite a few. I should know that number off the of top head. Is it, like, 100... Is it hundreds of thousands? No. It's it's it's... I wanna say it's a 100 or so, but I couldn't I couldn't tell you right now. I couldn't tell you that I should know. It's not hundreds. It's hundreds, not thousands. Yeah. It is. It's it's not. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Yeah.

I could I could probably claw it. But syndicates only forward and he'll give you the answer. Yeah. Claude would probably give it to you. And also also, like, these only live for a period of time. So that's why I... We we were talking about active syndicates. Well, yes, yes, and no. So they're at... So so they're they're an annual... So a syndicate is an annual venture, and every year, it gets it gets its business plan reviewed, and it gets renewed. And then it trades for another year.

But in theory, the first year is for three years. Right? But it... You get you get an annual business plan approach. That gives Lloyd's a a way of not necessarily culling syndicates, but keeping them in line with what the expectation should be. So so, yes, they are they are temporary in nature, but they're a lot more permanent than you actually think they are, if that makes sense. Because just because you've stopped trading doesn't necessarily mean the risk goes away and the reserves don't go away. And and the majority of syndicates do succeed.

It tends to be the smaller ones that are a bit bit too niche y or maybe ones where they haven't managed their underwriting appropriately you can see will slip by the wayside. But even then, there's a route for exit. And actually, our parent company, MarCO, is that route. So we've done a silicon 1975, which is the Cavares syndicate. We took the runoff over that and the Polo from, from Cavares Managing Agency. We assumed that. We assumed the people. We run that off for a couple of years, and then it got reinsured into our parent company, and that was that syndicate done and disposed of.

So there is a... There was a... They they

James Benhamabsorbed the book and then dissolved the syndicate. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. What role does technology play in all this for you? You you were... You had a technology company of your own. Yeah. So you have a a different insight than most CEOs. Yeah. It...

Paul AndrewsIt's it's getting more and more it's getting more and more... How can I put it? More and more focus. So so there's a there's a there's a there's a push for AI. Okay? Let's talk about the other few rooms. There's a push for AI across the market. The the problem the problem with the Lloyd's environment is there's a lot of legacy systems around. There's a uniqueness to Lloyd's in that there's a central settlement process which has... Which is bureau based, and yet the technology that supports that is quite unique.

So whatever whatever technology you wanna deploy into a Lloyd's environment, you start with, can it can it do messaging? Yeah. And it was a big project on Blueprint two, which some of the market know about, some people don't, maybe some of your maybe maybe some of your listeners will, which was a renewing of of that environment, and it came to a grinding halt just because it was too big and too complex and and too risky to continue. And and that's been stopped now. But that means that the majority of the systems that support Beloyd's vehicles have to have that as an under pick.

But the world is slightly chafed, right? So what we have now is API and RPA, so the ability to integrate desktops, worktops, workbenches, underwriting tools over the top of that. So you still get the messaging, but your underwriting is much more MI driven and much more focused, is starting to emerge. So you'll see businesses now focusing that desktop space, that underwriting workbench as special their source when they're looking at their underwriting. However, what we're now seeing is the emergence of AI. Okay? So you're seeing a lot of C suites across the market say, what's my AI strategy?

I've heard everything from, I've got a budget, I'm gonna spend it or we're scared of it, we're locking it down on or or or. What I know and what I've seen is AI is a wonderful tool used by the right people in the right way. So strategic AI, where it augments, people's capability, you can use it to unravel complex processes and give people the visibility to actually do their job in a way that provides insight is the way you should go. And what we're seeing in our business is that approach where we are...

Because we've got two businesses. Right? We've got a Lloyd's management agency, which is the turnkey regulated arm, and it's about a 100 people in that. And now I've got the the the commercial insurance services. There's about 350, 360 people in the commercial insurance services arm. That's the bit that's getting digitized. So that's the bit where we're looking at large OEMs models to do data capture and data extraction. What tasks?

James BenhamCan we just split those up real quick just so I understand the tasks that they're doing? Yep. So the managing agency Yep. What what

Paul Andrewsfunctions, roles, tasks are they performing? Yep. So so so let's let's let's quickly go back to basics very, very quickly. So when I came into the business three years ago, we have one syndicate, hadn't really done much for quite a few years. I came in and said, this is not the way you operate. We need to look at a more technology focused tech... More technology focused approach. So we went out. We've got a partner with a a a supplier in in the London market for what they call the Horizon Systems, so their modern platform.

We put that into the mix. We stood up a team that means we can stand up the past in that... For for that environment in two weeks. So a complex, multi class specialty vehicle, London market, full full powers operational within two weeks. That was our... That's our offering. So if you turn up to me, I can do that. By then, in in the regulated space of the vehicle, we do all the work that needs to get you happy with the regulator in that comfortable space and make sure that your business plan is is achieved and make sure that you are supported in every way you can possibly be so the regulator is is happy with your direction of travel.

Right? Because that's really key. And then the last bit is I can stand up fractional resource for whatever you need. So if you come to me and you say, I need half a person on a cold wet Monday to do this task, I can go... I can do that at my second office in The UK in Cheltenham. We'll allocate to you. That's really cost effective. That's the price. Sure. So as a start up business, we now can provide you everything you need. And we've done that.

We've actually had we've actually had people start up businesses, and there's one that that we started up about six months ago. Its income is excess of 400,000,000 gross written premium every year. There's three people in the business. We supply everything. Yeah. Because you're fractional for everything else behind it. Absolutely. Technology people, process, business governance. Close, buying, pay, rate, underwrite, issue, renew. It's all it's all it's all it's all within our gift to give. Yeah. Yeah. So so our our business is really pivoted towards people, technology, and process.

You're you're almost like a BPO.

James BenhamYeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're like a whole hog BPO. You'll do the whole thing. Week week and there is not much we can't do. Yeah. From underwriting to marketing, to to quoting, to pricing, to everything.

Paul AndrewsAnd and in fact, on that particular vehicle In any geography, anywhere in the world? Well, that's that's the beauty of Lloyd's. Right? So Lloyd's Lloyd's, you sit in London. You can write pretty much anywhere. Yeah. That's the special that's the special source you get with a Lloyd's platform is that ability to go across Bowelgrass. I heard

James Benhamthat to become a Lloyd's syndicate, that it's still pretty old school that you go to London and you walk around and meet with people at their desks?

Paul AndrewsNo. It's not it's not that anymore. I'll I'll I'll... I mean, we are... So we have... We... Well, actually, we've had one syndicate. We got nine now. Right? And we'll... Should... We should have more that way in the year. We have Lloyd's in our business, and we're in their business every day of the week. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. We see a lot of people, but but to be fair, these are complex these are complex businesses with multilevers that sit behind us. So any one business that comes in, there's a lot of interaction between the clients that were were coming coming to Lloyd's and Lloyd's themselves.

James BenhamYes. You can do that from afar, but actually sometimes you can't beat getting in a room and thrashing things out. One thing I loved about London a month ago was... And this is really not the case for anywhere else in America. Maybe Hartford Yep. Maybe. But, you know, our companies are spread all over Yep. You know, thousands of of of of miles. Right? Yep. Everybody was in the same part of London. I mean, it was it was wild. I I went into buildings a month ago where Yep.

If... I mean... So is there... Do you think that there's there's something special in the water in London because

Paul Andrewsof of the proximity of the capacity providers, the agents, the brokers, the... They're they're all together there? Yep. Yep. If you think about it. Right? So so we have a hybrid work environment. Right? So you search people, minimum two days in the office. Most of the time, you know, you can work from home. Okay. That's fine. That's great. And and and the guys over here in The US have been doing that for years anyway. Right? You've always had been quite real spread. Yeah. People used to be in remote work.

My office days... My office days, personally, I come in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. My my Monday and my Friday is my email days or my call days. I am back to back, face to face meetings in those three days, And I can have brokers, clients, cap providers, regulators sitting across the table from me. You get so much more done. You get it done quickly. Yeah. It's efficiently. There's no... We... Even with technology now, that two dimensional screen still loses context, still mishearing, not quite the right, you know, tone sometimes.

You get someone you get someone across the desk. You can connect, and, actually, you can just get things done.

James BenhamI'm lifelong technologist. I'm 46 years old. I've been writing software since I was 11. Yep. Started this business when I was 21. Yeah. I'd I'd have said x a u y in my kit in my use. I'm I'm I'm a... Yeah. I I started on a Commodore 64 and a Trash 80 and then Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Andrews1991 is when I started really working with computers. Yeah. So so so going back to what you just said, literally, everyone is within a five minute walk.

James BenhamAnd that's what I'm saying. The the... My my my point in this was I prefer face to face. Yep. Yep. I get so much more done. Yep. And I I spend my life digitizing insurance. Yep. I spent the last twenty five years digitizing every corner of this industry. Yeah. Yeah. Currently, you know, I've probably spent more time on claims Yep. Than I have on on distribution or Yeah. Underwriting. Yep. Tell me about claims for a second since that is kind of where I spend probably 70% of my day.

Yeah. How much... How involved do you get with claims? Do you Not not very, to be fair. You just push it out to a TPA and manage them tightly? Well, we we we we... So what tends to happen? Because we're a turnkey,

Paul Andrewswe get we get limited claims involvement. So what happens? Claims build up over time. Right? So you you get that reserve that reserve case. So five years in, there's significant amount of reserves sitting there, especially if you're on a long tail book casualty book. Because people are coming through the doors, they're out in three years normally, not always, your your your your claims activities is not very mature. So we provide a service around that. Unless there's a cat as in or there's something unusual, then you will not see a lot of claims activity for us.

So so our our view is... And actually, because of what we do, in theory, the the syndicate should have claim staff because it's it's a it's it's a it's an area they should be... We we oversee it, right, as a regulator. So you have to. But but but what tends to happen is we'll do for a period of time under a under a, like, a statement of works as a third party. But... And since they have to own the claims and live with it past being a Lloyd syndicate Yeah.

Yeah. It makes sense for them to have their claim stuff. Yeah. It does. Because they're gonna own that claim. If they're in workers' compensation Yep. That could be a seventy year claim. No. You can't. And and and I'll I'll I'll be honest. The the the thing about Lloyd's is there is a framework for everything. There's So a principle to doing business at Lloyd's, what I call the Pivo principles. There's one for pretty much anything you you you you would care to think about from cat and a tool to underwriting to third party management and the claims or whatever.

So there are principles that sit around that. When you work with a new syndicate, you have to install that framework into the business, and they have to realize what the authority is and what the limits are and how that's controlled. So there's a lot of work done with our with our syndicate partners to make sure they sit within the framework and they understand the moving parts. That tends to be the focus around claims, instilling those values that mean that when the claims do start to rise, you have a really good understanding how they're gonna be withdrawal and managed going forward.

Alright. So let's say when you're done, let's say the three, four years Yep.

James BenhamAs a syndicate, you're gonna graduate. Yeah. That's right. Yep. You are. You're gonna you're gonna matriculate. Yep. Yep. Maybe a more British word. And then what are you gonna go do? Are you gonna be a... Are you just gonna be a full fledged independent carrier at that time? Yeah. You are, bro. See, I find that... Normally, that's what would happen. As a turnkey provider, they would go.

Paul AndrewsBut that's not our model. So our business model is we give... We've given you technology to begin with. So we wanna continue to support that that technology. Right? So you come with us That was actually where I was going. Yeah. We stand up boardroom management systems. We stand up past systems. We give them a data warehouse. So we've in this in Heavily. Yeah. And then on top of that, we have a third party service business where they're still taking fractional resource. Right? So our model is to partner that technology with people for the longer term.

So our our idea is I want you to be a client for ten, fifteen, twenty years. I mean, you know, there's a certain company in in this company, Manchester United Lloyd's, that we've had... We've been their service partner for over twenty two years. Yeah. So so we develop that long term value

James Benhamwhere the where the client can turn to us what they need. Even though they're not a syndicate anymore, they've become an independent carrier themselves. Yep. But their back office is with you. Their technology stack is with you. Yep. Yeah. So they're still deeply interconnected. Yeah. Yeah. And then they do... They place their reinsurance. Like, what's

Paul Andrewsthe Well What's the placement relationship like? Well, they they... Again, they they can do that or or we can help them. It it really it really depends where they wanna see the relationship relationship end and start. And and I'll I'll be honest, we have a project internally at the moment called outcome two. And that project is... Because what would happen is when you when you when you graduate, you have to go and hire a risk manager and a compliance manager and an outsource reinsurance manager and a client finance manager.

Right? That's that's the that's the typical way it goes. In The UK, you have this SMF regime where directors and senior leaderships have to have to sort of be registered with the regulator, and let's call it that, which is the FCR, the PRA, or Lloyd's. In theory, as long as you have those people, the people that sit below can be outsourced. Right? So we have this this concept at the moment of outcome where we're linking the Lloyd's principles with a technology that allows us to monitor in real time that client's performance against the requirements at Lloyd's.

That's that's gonna be part of our our product suite rolled out. It's gonna be team based. So we can use so we can use Copilot on it quite frankly. And that's gonna be our method of actually embedding us further into the client's business going forward because we see that as an opportunity where we become not only a body shop, but actually a value partner where we can actually point the road as as as a direction of travel for them and actually make sure from a regulated perspective, they're where they need to be and give them that comfort and make sure they have a gold standard of munching their business.

So so so, yes, there's there's lots of... For me, there's lots of value I can add over the next couple of years as we've put it up polo and and get into that space because I wanna say goodbye.

James BenhamOkay. Technology. Yep. You're a technologist yourself. Yep. Just because you don't run a technology company anymore doesn't mean you're not one. Right? No. That's right. No. It's true. It's true. You're you're... It's a mindset. It is. It is. So what are you most excited Yeah. About that you're working on, that your company

Paul AndrewsI that Colo is working on? What what are you fired up about? I love I love awakening. I love awakening people to AI. It it... It's so exciting. It's... I mean, I've got I've got three... I've got Claude. I've got Copilot. I've got ChadGPT on my phone. Yeah? The the fact the fact that you can run people through those tools, and all of a sudden, the lights come on, and you can almost see the uptick in productivity, in how responsive they can be, in their own engagement.

That's... That has got so of it. It's exciting. Right? It's really exciting. And I think I think all this all this all the stuff I've seen is that we've got to build a large language model. We've got to have, you know, we're have a learning machine. You know, we're gonna completely redesign our our target operating model. You might do over five years or three years or four years. But, actually, those those value added tools and lifting that profit... Productivity of your own business will will provide you with more benefit in the very short term to medium term than you'll get out of that project just because people become so much more engaged.

I... I'm with you. I

James BenhamI probably teach three to five people a week Yeah. Outside my company. Yep. So I have almost 300 employees of my own. But then I also work heavily with Yeah. Several of my clients, and then I Yep. Speak. So inevitably, three to five nonemployees a week, I will sit down and and I can tell you for the last seven or nine months, it's been all Cloud. Yeah. I... I'll say, okay. We're gonna install Cloud Desktop. Yep. I'm gonna show you how to use Cloud Chat. Yep.

Cloud Cowork. Yep. And I'm gonna show you how to use Cloud Code. Yep. And now as of two weeks ago, Cloud Design. Yep. I said, if you understand how to use these, like, really how to use them. Yeah. My latest tip that I've really been pushing on people because they... They're struggling to write their prompts. Yep. I said, well, use Claude chat to write Write your prompts and put it in And then put it in Claude co work and then put it in Claude Claude code.

It's the same. Use Claude to prompt Claude. It actually is really good. Yeah. And it makes your output massively better. Yep.

Paul AndrewsAnd then you can get it correct. You correct your problems when you tell it it's done it, but it's got it wrong. Right? Yeah. You just reuse it and refine it. And before you know it, you've I do a self refinement loop in mine. Yep. So I do scheduled co work tests. Right. Okay. And and there's... They're actually recursive, so they they improve themselves.

James BenhamYeah. And then I I have to do a drift analysis once a week to see how far off target it's taken itself. I I do establish, like, core principles that it doesn't violate. It's really quite interesting where, like, I had to give it, a fence post that doesn't too far from Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I... I'm I'm in the same boat. Look. For for me personally, this has transformed my life. Yeah. Like Yeah. I... You know, I've always... The only thing that works for me from from a dietary perspective, for example, food is Yeah.

Food logging. Yep. But food logging is really a pain in the butt. Yep. Until you start doing it with VOD. And and you you can build an artifact in VOD, and then you just take a picture of your menu. It'll tell you what to order. Yeah. And then when you get the food, take a picture of the food and it logs it. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, this thing that was like really hard before Yep. Is now really easy. Yep. I don't feel like it's, you know, my friends joke that it's my AI overlord.

It's not. No. You know? It's it's my helper. It's the ultimate helper. It's your intern. I tell people No. It's like the most intelligent intern. Yeah. Yeah. I say I say to them, look. When you look at... You know, because there's there's been a lot of... If you look in the news,

Paul Andrewsjobs are gonna go, people's gonna change, they're gonna have no livelihood. I disagree. If you go back two hundred years, in Victorian times in The UK, you you would have had would have had people doing things like lamp lighting. So there's a guy going around, lighting the lamps, putting them out every day. There was a guy that used to walk around with a stick with a knocker on the end to wake people up and go to work. Right? These were real jobs. Right? And the value jobs they needed.

What's gonna happen is gonna be a it's gonna be a transformation where where people are gonna move into roles that they never thought they could have done. And the reason for that is the way people learn. And I don't think people will quite understand. It's fundamentally changed forever. Why do I need to go to college and get a three, four, two year degree on a specific subject? Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I will learn out of the back of that, but the way I learn is facts and figures based, and it's me actually having the concept of of what that subject is.

And I learn because you tell me what that is. Right? So what happens with AI is your ability to learn beyond your normal boundaries is actually there in front of you. So you almost have this ability, long as you're careful, to strain to any subject you want and very quickly have a much better understanding than you ever would have had before, and it's taking you an... A tiny amount of time. You can start running tasks, and you can start managing aspects that you could never have done before.

Get long as you're careful. Right? So so actually... That's why I love forcing it into learning, Mug. Yeah. It it teaches you along the way. So so so, I mean, I'm... I've I've I've got a project in my business. I mean, it's... There's there's 450 people in my business this awakening, like I said. And what I want is I want people to look beyond what they do and what they know and start start embracing what they can be. And I think I think AI will make them embrace what they can be.

And I think what's gonna come out of that is people that much more valued, much more switched on, much more in tune with what the business wants to do. And then when you give people, when you give the people, the idea that they can be more, you take away that glass ceiling, which is which is which is there because they haven't got a degree or they or they didn't go to to a certain school for a period of time. All of a sudden, you open up a whole host of people that are gonna be hungry.

Right? Like, almost see a future they didn't realize they could have had. And I think that's that's really interesting.

James BenhamI think I think so too. I am heavily involved in a university. I'm the chairman of the board of a public university. Yep. And we are moving quickly to reshape our curriculum Yeah. Because we have to. Yeah. You've got it. And and I view university as an important social refinement process. Yep. I view it I view it as an important time for maturing Yep. Developing lifelong connections. Critical thinking. Critical thinking. As far as individual skill learning, though, we can learn so much faster now. Yep. Like, because all of this is tailored to me.

Any subject I ever wanna learn, I'm learning now. And I I actually stopped using my corporate LMS systems. Yep. Our learning management systems, I I don't even use them anymore. No. Because I I learned from Claude and Jim and I, and I actually stopped using ChatGPT, believe it or not. Yeah. It it kinda feels like going back to kindergarten after working with Claude. But now five point... Know, the new 5.5 is is really good. But co work is is good because they... They're they're they're... Ever...

It... It's a big arms race. Yeah. It is. It is. It is. But that excite... Arms races excite me because that means that we're gonna get

Paul Andrewsthese incredibly powerful tools Yep. Available to us. Yep.

James BenhamAnd, you know, I... I've always believed that all problems are solvable with with people processing technology. Yeah. I know. But this is the first time in my career that I don't have to say no to clients. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get that. I'll get that. Like, I I don't have to say no anymore. Yeah. Like, they can give me the most outlandish idea on the planet. I'm like, yeah. We can probably pull that off. Yeah. And and that's, like, so invigorating for me Yep. That I'm actually working more hours than I ever have.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it did it. It shaved off all of this kind of BS menial time that I was working. Yep. And it replaced it with the ability for me to take this idea factory that's here. Because I I just... It's just like a constant stream of ideas in my head. I'll holler it that way. Yeah. I'll holler it that way. And do something with them. Right? Yep. Alright. So I wanna finish with this. Yep. What's the next two years look like for Polo?

Paul AndrewsWe're gonna we're gonna grow, continue to grow, which we have been doing. We're gonna put technology into our business. Are we gonna find grow? Growth So GDP grow? Yeah. We're we're gonna look at more offices. We're gonna look at GWP. We're gonna look at different software services. We'll look at different platforms. We have a we have a core platform strategy and a service strategy. So platform strategy is gonna expand. Service strategy is gonna expand. The service strategy is gonna pivot towards people and technology. It's more people, but that's gotta change.

Right? But but we know that could be done now. Just getting the right technology and getting the right clients to accept the technology, that's part of the part of the problem. So so you're gonna see probably us scale with a similar headcount as you have now, probably higher than it is now, but with people that are much more productive than they are happy. Yeah. It's exciting.

James BenhamVery exciting. Well, look. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. No. No problem. I hope you're enjoying Philadelphia. No. I am. I am. Not been here for ten years, but, yeah, I am. You know, this is a a contentious city for British American relations. Yes. It is. Yes. This is where the... In a contentious year. It's been two hundred and fifty years since that elevated document was signed and your American cousins split off. So I wanna say happy divorce day coming up this year.

That that being said,

Paul AndrewsI I love I love London. I love Great Britain. I I I know. Regardless of what what the media is saying around the world at the moment about various issues. I will say this. I've been traveling in The US now for over twenty years, and I've been everywhere. I've been West, East, Midwest, you name it. I've I've seen more more cities than maybe most Americans to be vet. Yeah. But my job is traveling to US. But I've always felt welcome. I've always felt lucky. People are happy to see me.

I'm happy to see them. It's always been a great relationship between The US and the Brits, and I think it always will be. And I loved,

James Benhamyou know, your king's humor Yeah. Was so well received. Yes. And a welcome breath of fresh air when he visited. Yes. Very nice. So It is a it is a delight seeing Yeah. Us being able to laugh about our collective history and and and move forward from that. So, Paul, thank you so much for your time. No. Thank you. For my guest, thank you for tuning in to geek out today. Our interview with Paul Andrews from Polo. More on the next episode and here at REMS.