Driving Innovation at the Nation's Largest Lawyers' Malpractice Insurer

James BenhamAnd we are back with another great episode of the InsurTech Geek podcast. I am James Benham, your InsurTech Geek here in beautiful College Station, Texas. That's that's right. We call it god's country. You can call it Aggieland. With me today from a very different place, but also the home of big skies and wide open spaces. One of my favorite country songs, wide open spaces.

David BellMister David Bell from Montana. How's it going, David? It's going great. Thanks for having me here. I'm not gonna sing along with you there, but it's it's fun to be a on a podcast that is unapologetically geek centric. Yes.

James BenhamWe are. Geek is in the name because I I view geek as a badge of honor. That's why I I've always kept it in there. You know, David, I I just presented in Montana. I was in Billings, and I as my opener, I talked about the things that are similar about Texas and Montana. You know, we're we're everything's bigger in Texas, and it's what's called big skies. Right? So they say in Montana, big skies. Big sky country. Yep. Big sky country. So big okay. So that's kinda that's kinda similar.

A lot of people drive trucks. I mean, you go to the average parking lot here, tons of trucks.

David BellSame in Montana? Same in Montana. A lot of times of the year, the truck's the only thing that's gonna get you through. Exactly. Exactly.

James BenhamTaylor Sheridan has significant operations in both of our states where he produces my favorite shows.

David BellTrue? Indeed. Yeah. Lots of lots of

James Benhamprequels and sequels and everything they can ring out of that storyline. Yep. And he and he and some of his buddies bought the 4 Sixes Ranch here in Texas, so he films a lot there, films a lot in Austin. Also, of course, has filmed a ton in Montana. I'm sure there's mixed feelings about him in Montana. Right?

David BellYeah. I think there years ago, we used to say that there that a river runs through it, ruined fly fishing in Montana, and now some people like to say that Yellowstone just ruined Montana.

James BenhamIt just ruined all of Montana. So, like, it's like all ruined now.

David BellYeah. It is fun to to travel around the country and even in different parts of the world and almost predictably, the first thing people ask is, is it really like that? And so Yellowstone certainly has shown a lot of the beautiful landscape that we live in here, even if it does depict the lifestyle of Montana with a bit of hyperbole.

James BenhamWell, it's gotta sell on TV. Right? It's gotta be entertaining and exciting, and it does nothing if not that. Right? Of course, I love all of Sheridan stuff, so I'm a huge fan of Tulsa King with Sylvester Stallone, which I I thought was just phenomenal. So I'm a big fan of the guy. Also common between Montana and Texas, both big football states.

David BellRight? Indeed.

James BenhamYeah. Now your big rivalry there is what? Montana Montana State. Is that right? That's right. The University of Montana Grizzlies,

David Bellwhich is where I'm at here in Missoula, Montana, and then the Montana State Bobcats, are in Bozeman at the at Montana State. Both great schools. I tend to be a little preferential to the Grizz, as you might imagine.

James BenhamI can imagine that. So were you born and raised up there? Is this your home state? I wasn't. I was born in Florida, actually in Miami.

David BellKinda grew up nomadically, lived in different states around the country, and then came to college here after having waited tables in Jackson Hole, Wyoming for the summer and fell in love with the West, came out here for school, and then joined Chubb out of college. And I was back in back in the Chubb training program and bounced around different parts of the country. And and then returned after having lived in different places around the country and the world, returned to Montana with my wife who is from here.

Her family our original homesteaders, probably much more reminiscent of the Taylor Sheridan storyline. And so, Britney and I decided to move back to Montana in 2012 from Bermuda where we had lived for, over a decade.

James BenhamWell, I can't think of a bigger transition than Bermuda to Montana if you're in the Western Hemisphere. That's a that's a big shift.

David BellCulturally, climactically,

James Benhameconomically. I mean, it it is it spans the gamut. We we we knew what we were coming back to, which was which was great, but it was nothing if not not a change. Yeah. That's that's that's like that's like shocking. Right? Mhmm. I mean, this this weekend this weekend, I got the privilege of going to Mexico City for the second time in a couple of years. I it was funny because it's an hour and forty five minute flight from Houston, to Mexico City, and it's a complete world away.

Right? Like, it's it's so close yet so far away. And so it's funny how sometimes that is even, you know, from Bermuda to Montana. It's not all the way across the world. It is a long way away. They are very distant from each other, but they are a world apart in in a in a lot of areas. I mean, Bermuda is a major insurance haven, which is obviously why you were there. Correct? Correct. Yep. I went over when Chubb and AIG and Goldman Sachs Capital Partners,

David Bellcollectively, founded, AWAC at the time Allied World. And so we went over in, early, 2002 to start, AWAC.

James BenhamSo and that's a that's a pretty neat rise, though, because you were a exec protection manager at, at Chubb. Right? And then you Mhmm. And then you went into SVP of global professional lines at Allied World Insurance, and you ended up being the chief operating officer there for, like, five years. So, I mean, you, that was a pretty rapid rise. Like, what was what did Allied World, Assurance,

David Belldo? It was it was it the it was a it was a Bermuda captive, or, like, what was what was the point of that? It was a it was a global, it was and remains. It was bought by Fairfax, so it still operates under the Allied World brand, but is a wholly owned subsidiary of of Fairfax, which is a Canadian domicile public company, great company. And, but but, AWAC was started to fill the the vacuum that occurred with the just unprecedented loss of life and property in 09/11.

And so it was what's affectionately referred to as the class of 2001 where as as has happened in several cycles of post event capital flows into Bermuda because you can start a new company in a fraction of the time as it would take to tip up a company in domestically since we are regulated by each of the 50 states independently.

James BenhamYeah. That's that's it because their their laws are so much more amenable to getting things up and running.

David BellYeah. You can you you you've tip it up and you and the business that you do domestically, you pay a federal excise tax, and it does become kinda one stop shopping. And you end up seeing Bermuda's had cycles, but you certainly end up seeing significant capital inflows in the wake of major events, was, you know, Hurricane Andrew, nine eleven, Katrina Rita Wilma with the KOW events, and so you you definitely if you look at the at the capital inflows to Bermuda, you can see a high high correlation with those post event scenarios.

James BenhamThat's awesome. Yeah. I I that's a that's that's really neat. Well, in 2012, you left being COO to be president and CEO of ALPS. Like, what first off, what is ALPS, ALPS? What what is that what does that company do? Yeah. So ALPS is ALPS has been for

David Bellsince its origin, which was founded in the wake of the S and L crisis when there was a a really a kind of a violent vacuum of commercially available malpractice insurance, particularly for small firms. But really it was a crisis for for all lawyers' professional liability, but it especially acute for small firms in rural communities. So ALPS was founded as one of what's called the NABRICOs, National Association of Bar Related Insurance Companies. There's several of them still around, most of them single state. And and I really, frankly, I I knew of the CEO, my predecessor, the founder of the company.

I I I knew and liked him as I had worked to try to help stimulate the industry of insurance in the state of Montana even from afar when I was on the board of Plus and otherwise, but I hadn't thought about working here. And then as you pointed out, Britney and I decided to move back to Montana in 2012. I was we'd redomesticated Allied World to Switzerland. I was in New York a lot, and it was just, it was becoming more more of a challenge to kinda run the rhythm.

So we decided to come back to Montana. I thought I was gonna go to politics or business or something like that, And then, whether it was serendipity or divinity or whatever was at play, the opportunity to come and join this company at a at a at what was a pivotal point in this company's life cycle. It had, it had gone through a problematic, acquisition, and so it created a kind of an inflection point, and, next thing you know, the best laid plans here we here we here we are.

And it's and now we're thirteen years later, and it's been nothing but a blessing and a great ride. And I've made so many great friends and have have been able to raise our kids. Our kids were first grade in kindergarten when we moved back here, and now they're both often in college.

James BenhamYeah. So this is the childhood they remember. I mean, you don't really remember much before kindergarten as a kid. Right? You remember you remember everything from grades going on. Well, The ALPS is, like, the it is the nation's leader in insurance for for single lawyer law firms and small law firms. Right? So it's it's it's it's the total and it's like a BOP for a for a law firm, essentially. Yeah. It's direct. Yeah. And we do we do sell BOPs,

David Belland all of the products that small law firms commercial products that small law firms need, but the specialty of ALPS and its origin has been the LPL, the legal malpractice. Yeah. But I think but what what differentiated ALPS for so long is that it's been singularly focused on the direct channel. We we this year in April, we bought lawyer care from ProAssurance, so we now have a broker channel and brand as well. But the origin of ALPS was was really focused on the direct side.

James BenhamYeah. And that's that's hard. I mean, it's it's been interesting on this show. We've covered a lot of Insurtechs that have started up with the goal of disintermediating brokers and going direct with whatever line of business. You you look at some of the bigger ones, and they were large personal lines property carriers and and, rental insurance carriers that decide, hey. We're gonna go direct, and and a lot of them have really fallen flat on their face and had to pivot their their their entire distribution model into into into pursuing brokers because of how expensive it is in certain lines of business to compete for mind sharing for distribution, especially in their case, their marketing costs just almost drove them out of business in a lot of these cases because it was just so expensive to buy AdWords online and compete against the major national brands for personal lines policies.

This is not personal lines. Right? This is commercial lines. You're selling to lawyers. I mean, you can go to probably, you know, you and the ABA are probably like best friends as far as speaking and attending events and exhibiting, I assume. You you you have a you have a a niche audience, you can really focus your distribution dollars. Right?

David BellWe do. But, you know, the challenges that the InsurTechs face are are challenges that we face as well because as a direct for the direct side anyway, the outside, because it is expensive. And I think I think we can all acknowledge that the way that particularly commercial insurance trades in our industry is grossly inefficient and ripe for innovation. And these InsurTechs, I think, brought a reasonable thesis to the table that if you build a a system that provides a easier, smoother experience for the consumer, that that they will abandon the way that this business has traded for as long as it's traded and moved to that.

And I think that that's proven to be a much more difficult ask than anyone really expected. I I do think that it's probably true for this particularly for the small, low premium, low commission business, and that's kind of the niche where we operate. It's more true there because there's not a lot of competition from brokers in that business because it's not very attractive business for brokers. But finding finding your prospects, courting them, contacting them, courting them many times over a multiyear process for a $2,000 policy, and then and then having them, you know, go out of business or retire or leave the practice two years later.

It it's there's a lot of friction in the operational model, so it's it's a challenge, and so it's also a blessing because it's a challenge, it's not a commodity and not everybody tries to rush into it. And so I think what we've tried to do is figure out what we're good at, establish that niche and then press the accelerator and we've been pretty fortunate. We've a lot of really good people here at ALPS that think about how to make the experience better for our customers day in and day out.

James BenhamWell, and that involves all the digital properties too, right? I mean, applying for the policy, renewing the policy. Of course, I love on your website, Biggest, brightest buttons are apply now and renew. So you're you're you're and, you know, you're definitely you're featuring your trust pilot scores. You know? You do some you do some obvious things that tech companies do with their websites, which is you've made it very conversion focused. Right? That's right. And, like, your three major action items you'd wanna do, which is apply, renew, and report a claim are all easily viewable and accessible.

So you you pass a lot of the tests for a for an InsurTech.

David BellSure.

James BenhamDid did you did you have to put a lot of work into that process of the of the application to try and make it, you know, less questions, less burdensome for all these law firms? Since you only work in one area, did you put a lot of user experience time into the initial application to try and chop down the pain point that that usually is for folks? Absolutely.

David BellAnd and it's not a past tense question. It's it's a constant ongoing. I mean, we we we watch the data on where our customers slow down or get stuck on our application process, and we re rephrase questions, move around questions based on where we show early indication of rates, and so you have to put your thumb firmly pressed on the pulse of consumer behavior and meet them where they're at to lower the abandonment. Nothing is worse than spending a lot of time and a lot of money to bring a customer across the threshold of your doorstep and then have them abandon the process halfway through because something about the experience you provided doesn't make entire sense to them.

We've got folks around here who are vigilant on understanding that and making adjustments, and we're constantly making those adjustments.

James BenhamYeah. Well, you sound like a tech company right now. Pipeline abandonment is like, every tech CEO's worst nightmare. Right? Because you because you're just your cost per click and your cost per lead, you know, really, really drive you crazy, and then you get them, you know, 60% of the way through through signing up and they leave, and you're like, oh my gosh. What what on earth did we do now? Of course, we get in do y'all do y'all get into split testing where you're actually split testing button colors and and and user interface design on the application itself?

Absolutely. There's very few things that we do that we don't AB test,

David Belland we do them in different parts of the country with different profiles of prospects, and ultimately what prevails is what has the best user experience and the numbers out coming. We are nothing if not a data driven organization.

James BenhamI love that. And again, that's a very similar conversation that that all of us have in tech every day is really about abandonment. Let's talk about systems. I mean, I'm I'm curious. Did you start out licensing? I mean, this this company predates you. You were brought in. You're not the founder. Right? Correct. Yep. So but but you've been running it for what? This is your fourteenth year or so running this company now. So you you got your fingerprints all over this organization. Did you come in and you had a legacy off the shelf system that ran this whole this whole operation?

Have you kept that system, or or do you do you do custom dev to to build your own stuff? Like, tell me what the technology makes. Again, I don't need the the nerdy super nerdy details. I'm just curious. It's like off the shelf versus built yourself. I I what what did it look like twelve, thirteen years ago? What does it look like now?

David BellYeah. So twelve, thirteen years ago, it had a there's its own proprietary system that handled everything from underwriting accounting claims, and the like. And then we rebuilt a separate replacement system that we released, just over five years ago, using an external vendor, but we own the source code and and kinda built. We re operationalized everything, used the opportunity of rebuilding the tech to reinvent operational workflows, remove inefficiencies, try to get that ball from bouncing back and forth between groups too many times, and then release that.

Since then, we've become much more of an API and I'm gonna quickly venture beyond my domain of technical literacy, but we used HubSpot for our CRM, we're plugging in more and more of these vendors that have slick tools and so compatibility becomes the new name of the game where we're kinda operating the main heartbeat of the body but we need the body to be able to accept APIs from all of these other vendors who are creating truly fascinating new tools for our industry.

James BenhamBut unless you're prepared to onboard then integrate it into your existing technology, it's not gonna do you much good. Do you have an example? And you you don't have to name the vendor. You don't have to get very specific. In fact, you could just tell me the type of product that you think is, like, really revolutionary and what it offers for lawyers.

David BellWell, in terms of our internal tech, you know, we we have one vendor that speaks to just the observation that you made that gives us a highly voyeuristic window into the the experience that the consumer is having. We know who's on, where they're at geographically, that, you know, you can watch them as they go through the process, and we're watching because we want to provide them the best, most streamlined, easily to understand process possible. And so in doing that, it completely reframed my own understanding of how my interaction with different websites works.

I no longer am naive enough to think that I'm simply interacting with a website. I realize that there's an entire ecosystem of people behind that business who are, probably have as much knowledge about where I'm gonna go next as I do.

James BenhamYeah. It's it's interesting. You know, I I use some tools that I I've used tools like that for a very long time. One that used to be around, it's not around anymore, it's called Chartbeat. And I started that using that fifteen years ago, and it told me everything going on all the time. Heat map workflows, what button they were clicking, what was popular, you know. It told me everything. Who abandoned, who dumped out. I've I've got one now that I'm using, that's that's really cool because it tells me I mean, it gives me the LinkedIn profiles on everybody list visiting the website.

Like Wow. Just straight up. It's just like it just here's here's all the LinkedIn profiles from everyone that came to your site today. And I was like, holy crap. Like, that is it it it is really amazing because it it cuts through all the noise. Right? Yeah. It's no more anonymous visitors. It gives you here's all the LinkedIn. And then, of course, you have you have your outbound team do all these warm outreach. Well, they're already on your website, already found you. Yeah. You know? So it's it's pretty remarkable how how good tech is now on helping you analyze pipeline.

Because, of course, you know, you've gotta dial in on on operations. Do do you handle oh, actually, I wanna I wanna pivot topics for a second. You you really dive into the problems your users have. Right? The the legal malpractice industry. Right? I mean, you have to. I mean, you're Yeah. I mean, because think about this company at its origins

David Bellwas started by lawyers for lawyers, to address a crisis. And and that that history carries through the DNA of the company. I mean, this is a company that's got a lot of a lot of former private practice attorneys, people who have been to law school, people who care deeply about the profession. We are an insurance company, and our job is to is to make a profit and do it ethically and transparently, but we also care deeply and authentically about the practice of law and the legal profession.

And so how we write our policies, how we design the consumer experience is very much wired in a way that's, you know, as if you'd be trying to serve a friend or family member in their experience with your company.

James BenhamYeah. And you're an A. M. Best A rated carrier, right? So you you obviously are doing something right. You've got the you've got a premier rating. You're you're all up in your client's business. You understand the problem because you have people that were actually in your client's shoes. What do you think today is the biggest issue? And let's forget let's take take tech and put it on the side because it's not a tech question. What's the biggest challenge for the legal malpractice industry right now?

David BellWell, one of the the biggest challenges, and and it's a challenge that we're kinda seeing as a as an opportunity, as a byproduct, is that the that culturally, the billable hour gerbil wheel such as it is is is really a grind. And I think they're with increasing frequency, attorneys are deciding that they are gonna leave multi member, mid sized or large firms, and start their own firm or a small firm really chasing a better work life balance. And that, of course, inures to our benefit because we serve that smallest niche.

But it is it it it's so it's good for us in the context of there being new business opportunities. It's a real warning sign for the profession to speak directly to your question, James, because when you when you survey people in this profession, there is a an alarmingly high percent that are, not happy and would question whether they would recommend their own kids come into the profession. That sentiment tends to skew very heavily towards the midsize and large size firms. We actually just surveyed the solo community in particular, and there is a significantly higher percentage.

I think three out of four were indicated that they were professionally satisfied. Don't quote me on that exactly. Can if there's show notes, I can we can post the actual survey into your into your show notes, but and it makes sense. If you if you if you're a sole proprietor, you do have to kinda chase your own, you know, to hunt your own game, so to speak, but you're in control of your own destiny and you can flex up your your work hours. But this is a profession in flux, and I think that it there will be evolutions occurring over the next decade that, are unlike anything, as particularly as the baby boomers complete their age out process and the and the newer and next generation comprises a greater percentage of the profession, you're gonna see tectonic shifts, I think.

And some will be positive, and some will will cause indigestion pains.

James BenhamYeah. Well, and you have you have a lot of factors weighing in. And first off, you know, the the old adage or the the the the quote that I I can't quite seem to nail down an exact attribution from, but I've heard it plenty of times over the last twenty four years I've been in business that the billable hour is the source of all misery. Right? It's actually it's not a fun way to make a living,

David Bellbilling billing time. Yeah. On either side of the equation. It's never fun to know that the that the egg timer is running, and it's and it's not fun to feel like you're a slave to it either. It's I think it is very often a source of friction within

James Benhamthe sentiments of attorneys. Yeah. On both sides of the transaction, like you said. And so you we definitely have seen some progressive law firms move to fixed price work. Right? Mhmm. I'm surprised we haven't seen it move faster, but yes. Me too. I think I think because it's such a sea change that it really freaks some people out, but Mhmm. They'd probably be better off financially if they did. They they they'd be liberated from keeping time. And, you know, one of my really good friends helps accountants move off of hourly billing onto fixed price work.

And in general, their results, they they double their income and cut the number of hours they work in half. So they they four x the amount of money they make per hour by leaving hourly billing and going to fixed price billing for tax returns, audit, advisory. They fixed price everything, put a menu together, and so that he makes his whole business training firms, on how to do that and has been quite successful. The firms that he works with are too. And I looked at it. Went, man, why just accountants?

Why stop there? I mean, lawyers do a lot of the same things. Obviously, there's a lot of discussion outside the legal industry about how AI is going to disintermediate lawyers in, you know, in part or in whole. No. There's a lot of people now who, simple agreements, just go to chat GPT, Claude, Jim and I, and have it draft the basic agreement for them now instead of going to an attorney. You know this is happening. There's a million examples of it, and the kind of contracts they produce are really good.

Is that really do you think a disintermediate of threat for lawyers, or do you think that lawyers are gonna get on board with using this move to fixed price, use AI themselves, and be that that final licensed bar admitted, review of the agreement to make sure that ChatGPT didn't have a creative moment otherwise called a hallucination?

David BellSure. Well, that's a that's a that's a lot of really good questions all packed into one. So let me just start off with I don't know, but I can tell you just one guy's opinion. I I think, in fact, I feel fairly confident that there will be a bit of an all of the above. There will be there will be attorneys who, whether it's their age or just their mindset, who are just simply unwilling or unable to adopt these new and rapidly progressing technologies that can not only be used, as you point out, to disrupt or disintermediate firms, but they can also be used as a very powerful tool internally at firms to bring enormous efficiency to the kind of work product that that firms create with the type of second set of eyes checking that that guards against hallucination, that makes sure that it is actually speaking directly to the type of of of legal product that the customer expects.

And so I think it will it will help some categories of attorneys really accelerate their their operational

James Benhamdominance, it will completely obliterate others who just absolutely refuse to adopt it and will eventually just be overtaken, and there's probably gonna be shades of gray in between as well. Yeah. And I you know, the the phrase I use all the time because I'm very deeply involved in my carrier clients, TPA clients operations and get you know, it's it we get very embedded with our clients. As you can imagine, we build the technology that drives insurance companies at JBK. So and we have our system, Terra, that does claims and policy.

So we're we're up in, you know, the the major decisions, and and one of the biggest phrases that we say all the time and that we try to reinforce all the time, and then we build it into the systems is human in the loop. There's gotta be a human making the final call with whether it's an underwriting decision, whether it's a claims handling decision. And, of course, on the legal side, whether it's a a legal opinion, right, if you're drafting, you know, a a a, you know, an admitted a lawyer who's passed the bar needs to be reviewing a contract before it goes out, needs to be reviewing a filing before it goes out, needs to be signing off on contracts and employment agreement.

But the tooling they use, you know, look, we've we've used word processors for decades now, and, you know, that that was a major shift in the industry, right, from typing and manual clerical work. And so there's been a lot of systems. Of course, we didn't have Google, and then we had Google. And so legal research really took a whole new light on when we got online search databases to search for case law. Mhmm. So, I mean, there's been a lot of sea changes, but I feel like this is the biggest one for an industry that produces documents for a living and the number one fastest growing technology on the planet produces documents for a living.

Absolutely. You know, it's a it's a major change as long as you have people kind of guarding the gate saying, hey. Look. I went to law school. I got licensed. I've got case experience. You know? I I'm gonna review this document before it goes out and make sure that it's good to go. Now you provide liability insurance for lawyers. So obviously, at some level, you know, if if a lawyer uses ChatGPT to prepare their to prepare their filings and they don't check it over, that's gonna be a malpractice suit.

Right? Absolutely.

David BellAnd we've all seen it. I mean, whether it's been The Wall Street Journal or otherwise, where there have been attorneys that who have already been sanctioned publicly for, citing cases that didn't exist and, you know, effectively using AI to create a work product that was not checked, and and and that's a problem. And and then there's no question that the use of AI will be a more prominent factor in the claims space for legal malpractice. Like anything, it's it's more complex. It's not gonna be all good for attorneys, although it's gonna help some firms who use it right leverage it.

It's gonna it's gonna really hurt other firms who resist it, and for firms who do use it wisely, it can be it can be an incredible resource.

James BenhamAbsolutely, it can. It can be a huge deal, it? So well, let's let's kind of wrap. We we talked about some really great topics around user experience, which, by the way, I'm super geeked out that you get so involved in, you know, understanding your customer and your prospects journey to being a customer. Right? And that you're you're so involved in AB testing. What where do you see the future? You you obviously completed an acquisition that allows you what what what is your and let's go you you very briefly touched on it, but what does your acquisition mean for your company where you acquired a

David Bellan agent, I believe? It's a it's a business called Lawyer Care, and it's and they were owned by ProAssurance. And ProAssurance is in the process of being acquired by the doctor's company. And so that was their legal malpractice division, and so we acquired that, which effectively is the same small LPL small firm LPL focus with one very important distinction. It trades through the brokerage side. So that is and we are committed to that channel through the Lawyer Care brand to trade through the traditional broker. And then ALPS continues to trade on the direct side, and so, it does allow a bit of a balancing in how we focus on distribution.

James BenhamYeah. Well, allows you to get to get to more markets, right? That's the whole point. That's right. That's right. I mean,

David Bellmuch as Insurtechs, I think, broadly thought that they could wholesale disintermediate an entire ecosystem over the course of a few years with a superior product. The reality is it takes a long time with a slow adjustment process, and so, you know, we we need to be we need to be where our customers are, and our and customers, small firms do aggregate to the retail brokerage community who then goes into wholesalers often and then comes into broker distribution market. So that's our focus with lawyer care.

James BenhamAwesome. Alright. Let's let's close-up with let's say, yeah, I wanna talk about politics because you thought you you you mentioned at the beginning of the interview that you thought you were gonna go into politics. Was was the thought that you'd run for office? Have you ever you've served on some great board seats, and you you've actually gotten really involved. You're a board member of the Bank of Montana. You're a board member of the APCIA. You're a board member of the Missoula, Montana Airport, which, of is a pilot I love.

You're, you're you're on the you're a board member of a of a center at the University of Montana as well. So, obviously, you've got some leanings towards the University of Montana. You know? But, you're also cofounder president of Grateful Nation Montana. I mean, you you're involved. You are you're you're a board member for nine years of the US Chamber of Commerce, which is a very politically active organization. What what it tell me tell me about your involvement in politics and what it's kind of evolved into for you.

David BellWell, there's the there's the personal side and the and the professional side as everybody probably who who likes politics and has an intersight professionally can probably relate to this. I have certainly my own personal political views and try to support candidates who I think are gonna bring the the type of ideology and and business sense into their service that I think is healthy for our country, particularly centrist who who are focused on civility and civil discourse and and and respect for one another. But then there's also where our industry intersects with politics, and our industry intersects with politics everywhere because we we work in a regulated industry.

And if and for those who are in the E and S side, if they don't think that they're in a regulated industry, they they are, I think, both mistaken and as as more of business moves into the E and S space, I think we'll we'll be more frequently confronted with regulatory challenges. But, you know, APCIA is, as you mentioned, and I have the the distinct privilege of being the chair elect of of that board. Dino Robusto from CNA is the current chair and and he and I were colleagues at at Chubb.

He much more senior than I. I've just I I looked to him as a thought leader, a mentor, somebody with great wisdom. But APCIA is the is the policy making juggernaut. AIA and PCI merged years years ago, and whether it's in the halls of Congress and advocating for federal reform or whether it's at the state level where APCIA is very active at individual state level departments of insurance, It's kind of the century on the tower, this trade. And it's a trade that I think has earned the respect of regulators at the state level and members of Congress and DC alike because you can trust them.

I mean, the the the staff at APCIA, they're smart they're smart people that are on who are honest and who who present the when we're advocating for something, I I've I've watched them present both sides of the story and be careful to help members of Congress understand based on the lens of politics that they look through how this issue could be seen, and I think that's why they're so effective because they're trusted when they walk in the door. So it's really, that's for me, loving politics on a personal level, it's like catnip to be so involved in the trade organization that kinda is the standard bearer for our industry for regulation and law as it relates to insurance.

James BenhamYeah. It's a very dynamic more very dynamic situation all the time, isn't it? Yes. It is. You have you have, you know, a lot of pressure from consumers, from business owners, and, you know, somebody has to stand in the middle and help, you know, help mediate the discussion at some level. You have to balance the balance the needs of the policyholders with the needs of the insurer and the needs of the regulator as well. Right? Because they have to respond to pressures they have from their voting citizens.

You can you can imagine, of course, you know this. I've been involved in politics for quite some time, first as a planning and zoning commissioner, then a city councilman, then mayor pro tem of my town. And my dad was on a state central committee for a party, and then he was a city councilman as well. And, you know, my grand great grandfather was a city councilman. So I I I I have a long line of that, and and I've had to learn to to walk the line on this pretty pretty pretty pretty closely.

I I can tell you, I like you. I'm involved in education. My favorite political position over anything else I've ever been involved in in politically is the one I'm in right now. Governor Abbott put me on the board of regents of Texas Southern University, and that is by far the most rewarding thing I've gotten to be involved in in politics because you're we have 9,000 kids at well, more than that now. 9,400, I think, kids at Texas Southern University who are you know, we're trying to change their lives every day.

And that that it's it's always really interesting getting getting involved in regulatory issues and lobbying for business and insurance and, you know, all the other things you've reason to get involved in politics. But I I I kinda feel like I've found my calling for the next half decade at least in in focusing my political attention on higher ed because it is, it is by far the most rewarding thing I've ever gotten to do. So I'm thrilled that you're you're so involved in so many different areas of politics and are willing to step into the fray.

You know? It's not, it's not easy. It's not easy being in politics.

David BellNo. It's not. But it's but it's and and I I have not, you know, made the sacrifice of running for office and subjecting myself to the to the public scrutiny and at times the vitriol that is so commonly associated with that, but it is necessary. Right? Our our our republic requires people willing to step into those spaces and, you know, articulate ideas and defend their perspectives and ultimately leave the will of the voters to decide who should govern and then have regular, orderly, peaceful transitions of power at all level, whether it's the regents in Texas or whether it's the members of Congress and the Senate in DC.

It's what our country is founded upon and what makes us great. And of course, you and I both work in an industry that is the DNA of capitalism. Insurance, I mean, without the ability to transfer risk from one balance sheet to the next, the wheels of progress grind to a very abrupt halt.

James BenhamThey do. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. It's It's a privilege to be a part of it. Yeah. Something I've said often, if you if you can't insure it, you're not doing it. I mean, I That's right. As a pilot, if I didn't have insurance, I wouldn't fly as too much liability. You know? It's just too much way too much risk to take on on your own. There's too too many things could happen that are outside of your control. You know? That could that could devastate you financially to the point you won't do it.

You won't engage in activity. Sure. Would be very that's why we always say the, the FAA may say they they regulate aviation, but the insurers really do. Mhmm. Yeah. They're they're the one who decides who can really fly. Well, this has been a great conversation, David. Of course, you and I have been been friends for a few years. I appreciate you coming on. It's always good to get to know something new about you every time I get to talk to you. But congratulations on what you've done at ALPS and in the in the in public service.

David BellAnd I appreciate appreciate you being on the show today. Yeah. Thanks for having me, James. It's been a real pleasure. Fun to talk to you in this context and really, really great to see how you have this platform to reach out to folks in our industry and stimulate intellectual discussion on technology and operations and everything. It's really a it's been a pleasure to be a part of it, so thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it. And, to all of our listeners in listener land,